On April 22nd, 1997 the legal head of OSA International, Lynn Farny, was questioned about the whereabouts of the missing documents by the State Prosecution and the police in the Criminal Justice Center. He confirmed the destruction of certain reports by FSO-personnel:
Q: "Okay. So that fills in a gap for me. You - you were the one that requested Lisa McPherson's files be boxed up?"
A: "That's right."
Q: "Okay. And again, I'll go through a lot of various folders here, is that including everything, her central file, folders, PC folders, ethics folders?"
A: "Well, everything in the OSA office at the time, which included pre-Clear folders, and I believe it did include the accounts folder, although that wasn't one of the ones I was necessarily interested in. That is ‘supposed to stay with Flag. There was a central file there and personnel folder material. It didn't include any of the stuff we subsequently found from the Celebrity Center in Dallas, it was just the stuff they had at Flag."
Q: "Right. So you say - what month was that that [sic] got shipped out to L.A.?"
A: "I think it was May. Doesn't seem like it was any later or earlier. Seems like the - ... " Q: "‘96?"
A: "‘96, yeah. Seems like the end of May. I know it's been a point of controversy since then, but there was something that Sudler had said to Bob Johnson that indicated to us that the police were basically done and just waiting for the autopsy report. So I said, Okay, well, fine, send everything up here and we'll wait and see what happens."
Q: "You came with some copies of the - how thorough was your search at that particular moment in December of ‘96 on you bringing virtually all of the caretakers notes? Do you know if you did?"
A: "No. December, I just - December, I just went through the first volume, saw they were there, kind of grouped together in the front. I didn't do a thorough search at that point."
Q: "You're not sure if you got every single one of the caretakers' notes on that December search?"
A: "I wasn't then. I am now, yeah. February he was subpoenaed."
Q: "Did you follow through with any theories or leads that you might - might have had in order to help locate the missing documents?"
Q: "What were those?"
A: "Well, I tried to backtrack several of them through the system back to see if they arrived at Alain's office. Then to determine if they made it from Alain's office over to OSA the night of December 5th, ‘cause I learned that Annie Mora and Lacy Spencer went over to Alain's office that night and gathered up what could be found. Most of the things were in a separate folder on top of the pre-Clear folder, ‘cause Lacy wasn't able to look at the pre-Clear folder. And although - Annie told me they found some stuff kind of scattered around on Alain's desk as well. I tried to determine if any of the people involved remembered specific reports for sure, because by then we were getting witnesses who were saying, you know, I wrote one report, I wrote three reports, I wrote- you know, I hand carried this one to Alain, that sort of thing. And so I tried to piece it together."
Q: "Most of that information came through their lawyers after I took their statement?"
A: "That's right. You know, each one, I'd get either a phone call or come up around the conference table, hey, Lynn, more documents. Okay, where? So I tried as best I could to backtrack it through there. And I found so many points of, I'll be frank with you, sloppy record keeping that I kind of despaired I'd ever find them.
"Lacy got rid of several at the beginning before she knew they were supposed to be kept. Alain isn't sure if he kept everything, and his office looked like a pigsty, as far as I was concerned. Annie and Lacy didn't get everything when they - got everything they could find that was there that night. Brian didn't keep everything, we know he shredded some.
"You know, the only thing I know, from the moment I laid hands on those boxes of folders in December, when I went to pull everything out - actually from May, because I was pretty, satisfied nobody touched them - all the pieces of paper that I had my hands on went to the lawyers, and then the responsive stuff went to you. But before that there was just so much sloppy record keeping that I knew I wasn't going to find everything.
"Oh, and ‘there was one - later on Alice Vangrondelle testified she had written a Knowledge Report complaining she had been woken up at two o'clock in the morning, to deal with this, and that report hadn't come up in any of my searches. I sent Glen over to the ethics files area a couple of times to find it. I told him he wasn't allowed to come back to until he found it, ‘cause I was sick of documents being missing. And he found that misfiled in another part of the ethics folder.
"Then after that he did the entire formal document search, I guess it was interspersed, where Glen had the people in charge of different areas formally search their documents, in writing to counsel, so we had an actual formalized document search. Before that it was me routing around trying to find what I could find out."
Q: "The last three days of her death, the caretaker reports for the last three days prior to her death you could not find?"
A: "It's two days, the 4th and 5th, only included in the summary and no caretakers' reports."
Q: "The 3rd, 4th, 5th and other dates."
A: "There's a lot of dates you're missing - there's one from the 3rd, Rita's, hers went into the 3rd."
Q: "We don't have Rita's, we do?"
A: "Whatever you have is there. The last couple of days are missing, as well as Swiss cheese throughout the time period."
While Farny primarily blamed the FSO's lack of oversight of its records for the disappearance of documents, the newly appointed "Custodian of Records" of the Clearwater Office of Special Affairs, Glen Stilo, proved that the Scientology management obviously was not interest to change it to the better, as he could not answer the most obvious questions about the missing documents during his interrogation on July 24th:
Q: "Let me cut you short because you were kind of heading off. When I say where did they go, we're referring to these missing ones. Obviously we don't know where they went or you didn't know where they went?"
A: "I did not, no."
Q: "Where did the bulk of them go which I've been provided?"
ATTORNEY MR. WEINBERG: "Where did they come from?"
Q: "Where did they go from Mr. Kartuzinski, these documents right here that are on the Internet now? These, have you seen these? These are the ones - ... "
MR. WEINBERG: "They're produced."
Q: "... - that have been produced."
A: "Yes, those are the ones we produced."
MR. WEINBERG: "Do you know where they were located?"
A: "I don't - I don't understand the question."
Q: "The question is, Mr. Kartuzinski read all those documents, that they were provided to him by either the security guard or Lacy Spencer, correct?"
A: "I don't know - ... "
MR. WEINBERG: "He read them?"
A: "... - that he read that them, but he obviously - well, I don't even know if he got them."
Q: "You don't know if - ... "
A: "They're addressed to him."
Q: "My question is: He's testified, Kartuzinski, he was getting these, they were going to him first, is that correct?"
A: "Yeah. Well, this one was. This one says Senior CS."
Q: "Right. A lot of them do."
Q: "My question is simple enough. We have these."
Q: "Where did these go after him?"
A: "I don't know."
Q: "You did not follow up on where - where these records - how they ended up getting to us, I mean the normal course? You would think that you'd check where the normal course of these records went so you could find the lost ones."
MR. WEINBERG: "Are you asking him where they were located, is that what you're asking?"
Q: "I want to know if somebody knows in that building where Alain Kartuzinski's mail goes when he puts it in his basket. And these were going, apparently, out of there to, I assume, Lisa's folders. Now, I don't know which folder, Ethics, PC."
A: "That's true. I don't know what he did with them, no. All I know is we have them."
A: "And that's what I'm supposed to produce."
Q: "Do we know how we got these? Do you know that?"
Q: "Who knows that? Who knows the answer to that?" A: "I don't know."
During December 1995 Brian Anderson had been the "Commanding Officer OSA Clearwater." Although he confirmed during his interview on August 14th, 1997 with the investigators that the death of Lisa was a significant and grave event for him and the organization, he lost at the same time significant portions of his memory about important after-events:
Q: "And he didn't have a lot - I mean, he didn't have a lot of answers, and mainly because the guy's from L.A., and he was in charge of investigating where all these documents went. You know we're missing documents, correct?"
A: "I don't know, when you say ‘missing,' if - ... "
Q: "Well, let me put it this way - ... "
A: "I know, yes."
Q: "I don't want to play word games with you. And I'm trying to be straight and blunt with all my questions with the people that I interview so they know exactly where I'm coming from so they can give me straight back answers."
Q: "I got a bunch of documents here that were provided for me through subpoenas."
Q: "Then I think you've read some of these, you indicated you read - these are all caretakers' notes - ... "
A: "Right, I've read those."
Q: "... - that I've gotten. You've probably seen these."
Q: "When did you see those? When is the first time you ever saw that pile of paper?"
A: "It was roughly a couple months ago."
Q: "Well, this is August. That would have been - ... "
A: "Sometime in June, I would think."
A: "Late June or so."
Q: "The first time you saw these things?"
A: "Yes, sir."
Q: "All right. I got these pursuant to this subpoena right here back in February. All right?"
Q: "And somebody in your Church gathered them up and gave them to the lawyer over here, Sandy's place over in Tampa, Sandy Weinberg."
Q: "My question is, who gathered them up?"
A: "I don't know who gathered them up."
Q: "That's a tough question. Nobody seems to know the answer to who gathered them up. Who knows the answer to that? Does Ben Shaw know the answer to that?"
A: "I don't know. I would - I would think - ... "
Q: "Simplest question in the world."
A: "I would think that would be a simple question to answer."
Q: "You would think."
A: "Yeah. I don't know who gathered them up. I saw them in, I guess it was late June, roughly. You know, it was some weeks ago, but fairly recently. That was when I first read these."
Q: "Well, see, you know where we're going with all this. You know why I have these questions on this area."
A: "I can - I can guess."
Q: "Yeah. We're missing a bunch of stuff."
Q: "And that's what we're kind of - ... "
A: "The last couple of days."
Q: "Well, actually, we're missing some spotty ones throughout and then certainly the last few days. But I have - how many guys did I come up with? They're on a list here with - ... "
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "11 or 12."
DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: "11 or 12."
Q: "11 or 12 reports that people - I didn't even count the ones that people said - like the last fellow we just interviewed, he's a Security guy, Mr. Toth, he wasn't sure, so I don't but that down as ‘reports existed' category, okay? I don't count that."
Q: "The ones that I put down as ‘reports existed' category are the people that say, yeah, I remember that day, I wrote a report, stuck in the basket, gave it to so and so, gave it to Lacy Spencer, I gave it to, you know, Kellerhaus, whatever. Those I put down as missing reports because somebody said they did one."
Q: "Well. I would think they'd be included with those and they're not. So I'm kind of doing a little investigation as to where those reports are. And my question is, who gathered up all those reports and gave them to the lawyers? And you're the head guy, I would think maybe you would know the answer to that."
A: "Well, I've been in Public Affairs since the first part of last year, May, June last year."
Q: "I know, but - ... "
A: "It wouldn't have been - the request wouldn't have been put to me in Public Affairs to round up these documents or - ... "
Q: "Well, this is a subpoena. I subpoenaed them now. So who would have been in charge of rounding up the documents in February of ‘97? Who is that person? Who might it be?"
A: "I would have guessed - I would say Glen Stilo."
Q: "No, wasn't Glen Stilo. He says no. He's a California guy."
A: "I don't know who would have gathered them up. I'm kind of missing something here. You put in a request to have these produced?"
Q: "Yeah. That's a subpoena."
A: "So it went to our attorneys? To the Church?"
Q: "To the attorneys."
A: "And somebody would have gathered them up?"
Q: "Well, yeah. The attorneys aren't allowed in your building."
A: "I see your point. I don't know who gathered them up."
Q: "Well, who do I ask to find out the answer?"
A: "Well, Glen would be the one to ask."
Q: "Glen doesn't know the answer to the question."
A: "Somebody gathered them up, ‘cause they're gathered up."
Q: "They're all gathered up."
A: "I don't know. I don't know who."
Q: "All right. These things were all sent, according to Glen, to California, maybe once, if not more, various folders, PC folders, ethics folders and stuff. For some reason they sent them to California. Are you aware of that?"
A: "Not aware of that. Wouldn't surprise me."
Q: "Sometime, and I don't even know the time -
PROSECUTOR MR. McGARRY: "You know the time frame, Wayne. When was that? They said they sent them over after the death sometime to California."
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "No, but Kellerhaus indicates these reports here were delivered to your office, which you were in charge at that time. OSA, okay, and they were given to Judy or Brian. And Judy would have been Judy Fontana and Brian would have been Brian Anderson. Those reports."
THE WITNESS: "These reports?"
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "You're in charge then. That's right after this thing happened. Kellerhaus gathered them up from Kartuzinski and brought them to OSA."
THE WITNESS: "Correct me, excuse me, someone said that they gathered up these reports and gave these reports to me?"
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "Yeah."
THE WITNESS: "Definitely to me?"
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "And that's Paul Kellerhaus."
MR. POLLI: "We're not talking about the interview on December 5th reports that got handed to him by Marcus Quirino?"
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "No, the entire file. Kellerhaus had to go back to Kartuzinski and - and get them and he delivered them to the office of OSA, which at that time he delivered them you were the boss, and he gave them to Judy or Brian."
THE WITNESS: "He said Judy or Brian?"
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "You were the boss."
THE WITNESS: "I don't recall getting these reports. And I surely didn't read these reports at that time. So if they were brought over there - ... "
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "Would you have sent them automatically to Los Angeles?" THE WITNESS: "I don't even remember getting them, you're asking me what I did."
DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: "I mean, if those reports came to you, and we have them coming to OSA."
MR. McGARRY: "He can't answer that ‘cause he didn't get them, he says he didn't get them."
BY MR. MCGARRY: "Let me ask you this: Who knows the answer to all these questions?"
A: "Well, I would have - you said Glen didn't know. I would have said Glen."
Q: "Glen doesn't know. Glen doesn't know how they got to California."
A: "I don't know either."
Q: "Well, there's some missing people here."
A: "I'm – I'm - I don't know."
Q: "I've gone all the way to the top, and you don't know the answer."
A: "That's – that's correct. I don't know. I'm trying to think what could have happened. I mean, I'd be conjecturing. I don't remember getting these reports. I surely don't remember sending them anywhere, ‘cause I don't remember, even having them, these reports here, could we call them caretaker reports, these daily reports. So where they went, I don't know. And who sent them where, I don't know. If you say they arrived in L.A. - ... "
Q: "Well, that's what Glen said. He said that PC folder, which is where these were placed, according to Glen, went to L.A. - ... "
Q: "... - after she died. I don't know why that would have happened."