1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume V 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR February 9 & 10, 2000 25 630 1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609 5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602 9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 12 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 13 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 14 Tampa, Florida 33602 15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: 19 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI Robert P. Polli, P.A. 20 Trombley & Hanes 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265 21 Tampa, Florida 33602 22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 23 Ms. Lara Cartwright Mr. Michael Rinder 24 Mr. Kendrick L. Moxon Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (Via Internet) 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 631 1 I N D E X 2 Volume V 3 WITNESS PAGE 4 Called by the Plaintiff: 5 CROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG.......... 633 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DANDAR......... 672 7 RECROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG........ 751 8 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 764 9 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 765 10 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE......................... 766 11 12 EXHIBITS 13 Defendant's Exhibit No. 44..................... 643 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 632 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume V 12 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the 13 Trial Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young, upon oral 14 examination in the above?styled cause, for the 15 purposes of use at trial and for all other purposes 16 as are permitted pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil 17 Procedure, proceedings therefor were held before 18 Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered Professional 19 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary 20 Public in and for the State of Florida at large, at 21 220 East Madison Street, 12th Floor Conference 22 Room, Tampa, Florida, on February 10, 2000. 23 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by 24 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector. 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 633 1 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were 2 had and taken: 3 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness 4 by the Plaintiff, having been previously duly 5 sworn, continued to testify as follows: 6 CROSS?EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q. Mr. Young, before we broke, right before 9 we broke for lunch, I believe that we were talking 10 about ethics technology in Scientology, do you 11 recall? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And I believe that you acknowledged the 14 fact that ethics technology is an important part of 15 Scientology, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, are you an expert on that? 18 A. I know a lot about it. I would be able to 19 testify to it. 20 Q. But I mean you would agree that an expert 21 should have the understanding ?? I mean an expert 22 on Scientology should have the understanding on 23 this aspect, on ethics technology, right? 24 A. Well, you yourself has pointed out this is 25 new ground as to what constitutes an expert in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 634 1 Scientology, so let's try it. 2 Q. Right. Well, you saw some of the learned 3 works that were written by the scholar ?? you know, 4 the scholarly works that were written, and all of 5 them, in addressing whether or not Scientology met 6 the definition ?? met the test, met the accepted 7 methodology of religion, all of them talked about, 8 among other things, the ethics technology in 9 Scientology, correct? 10 A. No. I didn't read those. 11 Q. Oh, so you didn't read them, so you don't 12 know whether those religious scholars addressed 13 that as part of determining, in each case, in 14 determining that Scientology met the definition of 15 religion? 16 A. I responded I hadn't read the material you 17 gave me, so you were describing it to me. I can't 18 speak to those. 19 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you a question. 20 How does the aberrative personality treat actions 21 done by another to him? 22 A. There is various ways that it could occur. 23 Do you want to ?? this is going to be a fairly long 24 answer. How do you want it? 25 Q. Well, isn't there actually a very precise SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 635 1 short answer? 2 A. Well, there is the phenomenon called 3 overts and withholds in which Hubbard says that a 4 person has got overts on another ?? you know, 5 Person A has overts, which are harmful acts 6 committed on Person B, and if Person B does 7 something, then Person A will start to natter or ?? 8 which is his word for complain about Person B. 9 That's one way to describe it. 10 Q. Well, isn't the answer ?? I mean isn't the 11 answer set forth ?? oh, you know what On Human 12 Behavior is, don't you? 13 A. Yes, I've read it. 14 Q. And you know what PAB 13 is, don't you? 15 A. Not by the number. 16 Q. Well, what is PAB, what's that stand for? 17 A. Professional auditor's bulletin. 18 Q. All right. And the fact of the matter is 19 there is a very precise technology that is set 20 forth by Mr. Hubbard, correct, in the bulletins? 21 A. About what? 22 Q. About ethics. 23 A. There is dozens, perhaps scores of 24 policies on ethics. 25 Q. Right. And the answer to the question SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 636 1 that I posed is very precise, it is everything the 2 preclear and others did to the aberrative person 3 was, A, very important, B, very bad, C, irremedial, 4 that's the answer, isn't it? 5 A. That's the answer in that one. There is 6 other answers ?? 7 Q. But that's the answer to the question in 8 the Scientology ethics technology? 9 MR. DANDAR: Object to your interrupting 10 his answer. 11 Q. Correct? Correct? 12 A. No. There is other answers to that 13 question that can be found in the materials to how 14 an aberrated person responds to what ?? you know, 15 there is also the criminal mind HCOB, which is a 16 part of ethics ?? 17 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Moxon, do you 18 want to say something? 19 MR. DANDAR: Robert? 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 MR. DANDAR: Please don't smile at the 22 witness when he's testifying, Mr. Moxon. 23 MR. MOXON: I didn't smile at the 24 witness. 25 THE WITNESS: He's just making ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 637 1 Q. By the way, maybe you didn't understand 2 my question because the question was how does the 3 aberrative, not aberrative, the aberrative 4 personality treat actions done by another to him? 5 A. As I responded, there is various ways that 6 that could be done through the criminal ?? 7 Q. All right. So you understood my question 8 then? 9 A. Okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: Object to your interrupting 11 him. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I interrupted him 13 because I wanted to make ?? 14 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike, move to the 15 question. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if you'll be quiet. 17 Q. I just wanted to make it clear that it 18 didn't make any difference to you whether it was 19 aberrated or aberrative, is that right? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. Well, what offenses compose the 22 charge of failure to uphold or set an example of 23 high ethical standards? 24 A. That could be done usually within a staff 25 position. Let's say, for example, you are a senior SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 638 1 over a person and you let that person come in late, 2 you let the person ?? you don't care if the person 3 files reports, you let the person be slovenly in 4 their appearance and you let them just be 5 disgraceful in their post, you are not maintaining 6 ethics in the area. 7 Q. But there is a very precise answer to that 8 question set forth in HCO PL3, part of ethics and 9 executives, correct? 10 A. There might be a specific reply to ?? a 11 specific point in that. I don't question that. 12 There is no problem on that. No Scientologist is 13 ever spot checked in that way. 14 Q. Now, the Sea Org has always been part of 15 the corporate structure from day one in 16 Scientology, hasn't it? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Sea Org members today ?? every Sea Org 19 member today is in churches that are part of the 20 corporate structure of Scientology, correct? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So that you don't even acknowledge that 23 Sea Org members are part of Scientology churches 24 and organizations? 25 A. That wasn't my answer. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 639 1 Q. Well, do you agree that every Sea Org 2 member is part of, a member of, in a Sea Org ?? I 3 mean a Church of Scientology corporation? 4 A. No. 5 Q. In a Church of Scientology church? 6 A. Not as staff, no. 7 Q. Now, you're familiar with the basic issues 8 of the Sea Organization? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The Flag Orders? 11 A. I've read many of them. 12 Q. Well, that's what they are, right, they're 13 the Flag Orders? 14 A. Well, there is also other issues. There 15 is Flag Bureau Orders and there is Ship Orders and 16 there is other forms of orders that make up the 17 basic policies for Sea Organization personnel. 18 Q. And the most basic Flag Order is Flag 19 Order 1, is that right? 20 A. It was the first one, in that sense of 21 basic. 22 Q. And that discusses the formation of the 23 Sea Org, right? 24 A. It may. I don't remember just name and 25 title of the first one. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 640 1 Q. Well, did you read the first one? 2 A. I've read it. 3 Q. Well, do you remember that in Flag Order 4 Number 1, that it set forth and established the Sea 5 Organization as part of the Church of Scientology 6 California? 7 A. If you want to show me so I can ?? 8 Q. I'm just asking if you recall that? 9 A. I would want to see the issue to see 10 whether or not that's an issue that actually got 11 changed. 12 Q. Just answer my question. 13 A. No, I don't recall that. 14 Q. That's the answer to my question. So you 15 don't recall it, is that right? 16 A. No, I don't recall that. 17 Q. Let me show ?? well, how would you know if 18 the issue has been changed? 19 A. Because there ?? when Flag Orders were 20 issued, they were usually broadly issued to a lot 21 of personnel and there are issues that you can find 22 that were issued, say, in 1965 that are originally 23 off the mimeograph machine in 1965 as opposed to 24 reprinted, say, in 1995. 25 Q. I was under the impression that Flag Order SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 641 1 Number 1 was in 1967? 2 A. You just wanted to ask me ?? you asked me 3 about a span of time and my point was going to be 4 you would go back and find the original one with 5 the original staples and you make a comparison 6 against the ones that came off the mimeograph 7 machine to see ?? 8 Q. All right. Well, let me ?? I'm sorry to 9 interrupt. Go ahead. 10 A. ?? to see whether or not there was changes 11 to one that got reprinted. 12 Q. And my question to you is you have sat 13 here for his direct and yesterday professing to be 14 some sort of an expert. Surely you know when the 15 first ?? when Flag Order Number 1 was? 16 A. I wasn't ?? 17 Q. What year? 18 A. My point was saying '65, '95. I could 19 have said '55. I could have said '75. My point 20 was a span of time, not naming a year for an issue. 21 I just pulled a year out of the thin air to give 22 you a span of time of comparing something from, 23 say, 30 years ago, 40 years ago. 24 Q. It doesn't mean ?? it's not important to 25 you whether you are right or wrong when you espouse SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 642 1 these things? 2 A. I didn't say ?? 3 MR. DANDAR: Objection. That's 4 argumentative. 5 Q. Go ahead. 6 A. I did not ?? I don't know what you are 7 responding to, that I was espousing something, 8 other than the point of answering your question how 9 would I know if something was changed. I would 10 find the original issue, even if it was 30 years 11 ago, 40 years ago, whatever came off the mimeograph 12 machine, people collect these, and then you compare 13 it against today's and see if somebody changed it. 14 Q. Okay. And I'm asking you as you sit here 15 today do you recall when the Sea Org was 16 established, what year do you recall? 17 A. Formally, I believe it was 1966 or '67. 18 Q. Not '65, right? 19 A. I don't know exactly when they wanted to 20 call the exact date because he actually had it 21 operational and then he finally named it as such. 22 Q. And you remember ?? 23 A. And then it had an official birthday. 24 Q. ?? that its official birthday was the 25 issuance of Flag Order Number 1? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 643 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that was issued by Mr. Hubbard 3 himself, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 44 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. Let me show you what's Exhibit 44 and ask 8 you if you remember ?? if you recognize this to be 9 Flag Order Number 1? 10 A. This is a reissue. 11 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy for me? 12 MR. WEINBERG: No. 13 A. This is a reissue of it. 14 Q. And you know that because of what? 15 A. Well, first of all, there is a serious 16 typo on the type ?? on the top which would have 17 never have gotten off the ship, which it says SSEA 18 Organization. Secondly, this is ?? you can look ?? 19 comparing to back what was being issued on Flag, 20 you could look at the originals and you can spot 21 the difference between this and this type of 22 typeface. This was done what looks like on a 23 carbon ribbon typewriter. It's nice and clear. 24 The font is clean. Everything is really nice. 25 It's a modern typewriter. It wasn't what was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 644 1 coming off the Flagship or even policies in 1967, 2 and that's not hard to do. When you pull up 1967 3 issues ?? 4 Q. Well, you weren't on the ship, were you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. You were never on the ship, were you? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And so what, it's your suggestion that 9 somehow this has been falsified, is that your 10 suggestion? 11 A. I did not say that. 12 Q. Now, why would ?? 13 A. I said it was reissued and retyped, that's 14 all. 15 Q. Okay. And what is the difference whether 16 it's reissued or not? Doesn't this indicate that 17 in 1967, through Flag Order 1, August 12th of 1967, 18 that the Sea Organization was officially 19 established under the corporate name of Hubbard 20 Exploration Company ?? Explorational Company 21 Limited, now owned by the Church of Scientology of 22 California, isn't that what this does? 23 MR. DANDAR: Objection. The document has 24 not been authenticated. The document speaks 25 for itself. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 645 1 A. You're asking me to verify this document. 2 I will not verify this document because I cannot 3 determine if it matches the original. That was my 4 point that I made in direct and I'll make the point 5 again with this. All I can say is what this ?? 6 these five pages that you've handed to me, what 7 they say. I do not know if somebody else has 8 inserted changes in here, which is what is being 9 done with issues to make them fit the responses and 10 the needs in the courts. 11 Q. I see. So it would make a lot of sense to 12 reissue a document that was issued in ?? you do 13 admit that this was issued originally in 1967, 14 right? 15 A. I don't question that. 16 Q. Okay. So I'm going to reissue a document 17 for some purpose that I guess is wrongful and in 18 the document ?? 19 A. I didn't say that. 20 Q. Well, I'm just reading between the lines 21 here, Mr. Young, because I'm having a hard time 22 understanding why every time somebody puts a 23 document ?? well, strike that. 24 A. If I may ?? 25 Q. No. It's not a question. I'll withdraw SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 646 1 it. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. So I've got a document here where you're 4 questioning whether it's reissued and it says as to 5 Flag appointments: Flag Supercargo, Ray Thacker; 6 Flag Chief Officer, Hank Laarhuis; Flag 7 Communicator, Jill Van Staden. Do you know these 8 people? 9 A. No. 10 Q. I mean you assume that these people really 11 existed in 1967, right? 12 A. If you're going to try to get me to 13 back?door the authentication of this ?? 14 Q. Is that right? 15 A. Let me finish my answer. I'm not going to 16 authenticate that these people held these positions 17 according to this being an actual exact copy of 18 Flag Order Number 1. I can't say that. 19 Q. All right. But I guess you can't say that 20 anything in the Red Books is authentic either, 21 right? 22 A. The Red Books are also retypeset. The 23 originals were off mimeograph machines. 24 Q. Just answer my question. You, as you sit 25 here today ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 647 1 A. I can't authenticate them. 2 Q. You have to go back to the original 3 document, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. But you haven't gone back to the original 6 document for all the Red Volumes to authenticate 7 it, have you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You haven't gone back to the original 10 document for all the Green Volumes to authenticate 11 them, have you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You haven't gone back to the original 14 document for all the Flag Orders to authenticate 15 them, have you? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You haven't gone back to the original 18 document for the other hundreds of thousands of 19 pages of works that Mr. Hubbard published to 20 identify ?? to authenticate them, have you? 21 A. I have done some, yes, I have. I've done 22 quite a few. I did over a thousand. 23 Q. So that was in ?? you did that when you 24 were sitting in the hotel room that was provided to 25 you by Mr. Haney? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 648 1 A. No. I did it when I was working in Los 2 Angeles on the FACT Net case regarding copyright, 3 when we got copies of originals to compare them 4 against the exhibits that were presented by the 5 Scientology organization. 6 Q. Well, yeah, but you put in the, on direct, 7 you put in the Flag Order that we talked about 8 appointing Pat Broeker as a loyal officer, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. But you couldn't authenticate that, could 11 you? 12 A. That was from a Scientology publication. 13 Q. But you couldn't authenticate it. You 14 didn't look at the original whatever it was to see 15 if that was the real thing, did you? 16 A. True, and that wasn't the point. The 17 point was the cancellation, not the issue. 18 Q. I see. 19 A. The very cancellation that you put into 20 evidence, or we put in. 21 Q. Now, you know that ?? you're familiar with 22 OEC Volume 0 in the Basics ?? you know that OEC 23 Volume 0 is the Basic Staff Hat, is that right? 24 A. No, it's not. It's the basic volumes. 25 The Basic Staff Hat was a different issue. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 649 1 Q. Well, some of the most fundamental 2 principles of administration in Scientology ?? it's 3 Volume 0? 4 A. It's the ?? 5 Q. It's one of the most fundamental 6 principles of the administration of Scientology, 7 right? 8 A. It is the basic staff volume that's used 9 as a Basic Staff Hat. 10 Q. Every staff member is expected to know 11 those basic practices, right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. No? Okay. So it's part of the Green 14 Volumes, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. I'm actually holding one up. Do you want 17 to hold it up for the camera? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is that the Green Volume that has ?? is 20 that Volume 0? 21 A. This is the new Volume 0. 22 Q. It's the one that's being used in 19 23 whatever, 1999, 2000, right? 24 A. Right. And now it's named as the Basic 25 Staff Hat. It was never done that before. Before SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 650 1 it was just basically Volume 0. 2 Q. And you don't have any challenge to the 3 fact that the Church of Scientology is using a new 4 volume called Basic Staff Hat in the year 2000, 5 right? 6 A. No, just ?? 7 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form of the 8 question. 9 Q. Let me show you an older volume. Is this 10 the one that you used to use? 11 A. Let's see what year this is. This is even 12 later. This is 1980. This one says Basic Staff 13 Volume. That was my point. And it ?? 14 Q. You were there then, right? 15 A. Yeah. It's just ?? you know, as I said, 16 the difference between this one and that one is, 17 obviously, they have grown in size. 18 Q. All right. Okay. But the point is this 19 is where the fundamental principles of 20 administration are for Scientology churches, right? 21 A. Yeah, but just to clarify one point, that 22 is a separate course. Every staff member just 23 doesn't sit down and do all of Volume 0. They get 24 their own basics and later on they might do the 25 Volume 0 check sheet. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 651 1 Q. And you're ?? well, have you read Volume 2 0? 3 A. Yes, I did the Volume 0 course. 4 Q. So you are familiar with that, right, is 5 that ?? 6 A. Yeah, back with the older volume. 7 Q. Okay. Well, what is the first and primary 8 goal of the Scientology organization? 9 A. It says in a couple places. In one place 10 he says make money, make more money, make more 11 money. 12 Q. Yeah, except are you familiar with the 13 place where he actually addresses that question? 14 A. And he also says in someplace else the 15 primary thing is to maintain friendly relations 16 with the environment. 17 Q. And do you remember in HCO PL, Policy 18 Letter, 26, quality counts, that that question is 19 asked and the answer is the first and primary goal 20 of an organization is delivering the foremost 21 technical quality that can be delivered in its 22 area, isn't that the answer that Mr. Hubbard gave 23 to that question? 24 A. On that policy letter, yes. 25 Q. Well, that's the one I asked you about. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 652 1 It's very precise, isn't it? 2 A. On that one it is, yes, but the point is 3 he says it in different ways in different places. 4 Q. The point is is that when I asked you the 5 question, you gave me the wrong answer according to 6 the technology? 7 A. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. 8 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative. 9 Move to strike. 10 A. No, I didn't. I'd be happy, if you ever 11 want to break and have me go find the volumes, I'll 12 show you how he says that in response to that 13 question. 14 Q. Well, how does he define the term 15 responsibility? You know that that term is defined 16 by Mr. Hubbard in the volumes, right? 17 A. Several times over in different places. 18 There is even an HCOBE on responsibility and there 19 is also PLs on responsibility, and there's also in 20 the tech volumes. It goes around and around and 21 around. It's just basically being responsible for 22 your action, taking ownership for your actions and 23 what you do. 24 Q. Well, in the HCO PL2, May 1985, doesn't he 25 define, precisely define responsibility to be the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 653 1 nonrecognition and denial of the right of 2 intervention between oneself and any being, idea, 3 matter, energy, space, time or form in the 4 assumption of full right of determination over it, 5 doesn't he do that? 6 A. He might. 7 Q. Well, but isn't this ?? 8 A. You just read it to me, sir. I'm not 9 looking at what you're reading. 10 Q. Isn't this a precise technology, 11 Scientology? 12 A. He calls it that. I don't consider it 13 precise. He calls it that. 14 Q. But isn't that ?? it's an applied 15 religious belief, isn't it? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And it is important for people that 18 practice Scientology, particularly members of the 19 staff as they are applying these Green Volumes, to 20 apply them as Mr. Hubbard wrote, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. Now, you have not received any 23 stipends or grants to do research on religion, 24 comparative religion, religious philosophy or the 25 religiosity of Scientology, have you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 654 1 A. No. 2 Q. You didn't develop any standards of 3 control when you were developing your opinion in 4 order ?? as to Scientology in order to determine a 5 potential error rate for others that would try to 6 analyze your opinions, did you? Do you understand 7 what I'm asking you? 8 A. Not really. 9 Q. Well, do you ?? 10 A. We weren't talking statistics. We're 11 talking opinion. 12 Q. No, but when you ?? do you understand that 13 when one appears as a so?called expert, that in 14 order to test what you come in to give your 15 supposed learned opinion about, that there has to 16 be some methodology that others can test, do you 17 understand that? 18 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form; 19 argumentative. 20 Q. Do you understand that? 21 A. No, I don't understand the point you're 22 making since I'm not talking statistics or science. 23 Q. Well, you didn't develop a methodology 24 with regard to the opinions that you rendered with 25 regard to Scientology in the last two days, did SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 655 1 you? 2 A. What do you mean methodology? 3 Q. Well, some sort of method by which others 4 can test and understand and try to analyze ?? 5 MR. WEINBERG: You know, excuse me. Mike, 6 now, if you want to sit there and shake your 7 head and try to disrupt what's going on, I 8 object to it. 9 MR. DANDAR: What are you talking about? 10 MR. GARKO: Excuse me, counselor. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I'll tell you exactly what 12 I'm talking about. What you're doing is 13 looking at the witness ?? what you're doing at 14 the witness, you're looking at him and you're 15 shaking your head and that's improper. 16 MR. GARKO: No, I'm not. 17 MR. DANDAR: He's not. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you are. 19 MR. GARKO: No, I am not. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm looking right at you 21 when you do it. 22 MR. GARKO: Do you know what no means? 23 MR. WEINBERG: It's very disruptive. 24 MR. GARKO: No means no. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, guess what? You SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 656 1 were and I object to it, Ken, and you need to 2 instruct Mr. Garko ?? 3 MR. DANDAR: I'm not instructing him. 4 You're out of line. I'm sitting right next to 5 him. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not ?? I'm looking at 7 him. 8 MR. GARKO: I'm sitting here rubbing my 9 eye. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm looking at him and I 11 know exactly what he did and it's improper. 12 He's looking right at Mr. Young ?? 13 MR. GARKO: I'm not looking at Mr. Young. 14 MR. WEINBERG: ?? and what he is doing is 15 he's making head gestures and it's improper. 16 MR. DANDAR: He's not doing what you're 17 saying. 18 MR. GARKO: No, I am not. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, he is. 20 MR. DANDAR: Why are you creating this 21 scene? 22 MR. GARKO: You're just trying to make a 23 false record. 24 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not making a false 25 record. I'm making an accurate ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 657 1 MR. GARKO: You're making a false record, 2 Counselor. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Sort of like what's been 4 going on every deposition we've ever been to? 5 Look, I haven't said one thing about you 6 before but that was improper. 7 MR. GARKO: There is nothing to say, 8 Counselor. 9 MR. WEINBERG: That was improper. 10 MR. GARKO: There's nothing to say. 11 MR. WEINBERG: And it's inappropriate. 12 It's inappropriate. 13 MR. GARKO: You lack civility. 14 MR. WEINBERG: It's inappropriate. 15 MR. GARKO: You lack civility. 16 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, incorrect. 17 MR. GARKO: Learn some civility, 18 Counselor. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Will you ?? will you tell 20 him ?? 21 MR. DANDAR: You're the one that's 22 arguing with him. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not arguing with him. 24 MR. GARKO: If you want to argue with me, 25 Counselor, I'll be more than happy to engage SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 658 1 you. 2 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Stop. 3 MR. WEINBERG: What, are you threatening 4 me now? 5 MR. DANDAR: Stop. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Are you threatening me? 7 MR. DANDAR: Stop. 8 MR. GARKO: You're threatening me. 9 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't. I asked you 10 to control yourself. 11 MR. DANDAR: Do you want me to interrupt 12 you every time that Rinder, who now is sitting 13 next to you, starts to smirk, or Moxon who 14 starts to shake his head? 15 MR. WEINBERG: All you've ?? that's what 16 you've been doing through the whole 17 deposition. 18 MR. DANDAR: Do you want me to continue 19 to do that? 20 MR. WEINBERG: You've been doing it. 21 MR. DANDAR: I will do it. 22 MR. WEINBERG: This is the first time 23 I've said anything. 24 MR. DANDAR: It's improper. 25 MR. WEINBERG: What this ?? yeah, what SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 659 1 you are doing is ?? 2 MR. DANDAR: I'm sitting next to him. 3 He's not doing what you are claiming. 4 MR. WEINBERG: No. How could you ?? 5 MR. DANDAR: I would be the first to 6 admit it. 7 MR. WEINBERG: What, you've got eyes in 8 the back of your head? 9 MR. DANDAR: I'm sitting right next to 10 him. 11 MR. WEINBERG: You've got eyes in the 12 back of your head? 13 MR. DANDAR: I know how frustrating it 14 is. Let's go on. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it is frustrating to 16 sit here for two days ?? 17 MR. DANDAR: And don't call Mr. Young a 18 so?called expert. 19 MR. WEINBERG: You know what ?? 20 MR. DANDAR: That is improper as well. 21 MR. WEINBERG: You know what? He's not 22 an expert. 23 MR. DANDAR: Well, you may think that but 24 don't put it in your question. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I think I've established SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 660 1 it. 2 MR. DANDAR: Don't put it in your 3 question. It's insulting. It's 4 argumentative. 5 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not. It's not. 6 It's not. It's not because he's not an 7 expert. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q. Do you understand as somebody that 10 purports to be an expert, that you've got to have 11 some methodology from which to establish your 12 expert opinions, do you understand that? 13 MR. DANDAR: Objection; improper form, 14 argumentative. 15 Q. Do you understand that? 16 A. That is not a requirement for being an 17 expert in every subject or field. Perhaps 18 statistically or in the physical sciences or in 19 doing Gallup polls. 20 Q. You didn't ?? in any event, you didn't 21 establish a methodology in order to put together 22 your opinions that you rendered in this case, is 23 that right? 24 A. Well, go back to the question that 25 was sort of, I guess, sort of pending. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 661 1 Q. Just answer that question. 2 A. That was when that outbreak occurred. I 3 didn't understand what you mean by methodology. 4 Q. Well, a way in which you established a, 5 you know, a scientific way in which you go about 6 obtaining data, reviewing data, analyzing data and 7 developing your opinion. Did you establish one? 8 A. And you require this for me to do this? 9 Q. I'm asking you if you did it. 10 A. I did a ?? no, I did no scientific 11 analysis. 12 Q. All right. That's all I'm asking you in 13 the questions. Did you ?? 14 A. This is certainly not required to be an 15 expert in every field to do that. If you want to 16 argue that ?? 17 Q. So you did not establish a methodology to 18 analyze ?? 19 A. I have a method. It may not fit your 20 criteria but I have a method, of course. Do you 21 want to ask me about my methods? 22 Q. Did you have a method in which to analyze 23 data before you came in here today? 24 A. Of course I analyzed data. 25 Q. But your method was what? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 662 1 A. Okay. You want a narrative now? I'm 2 willing to ?? 3 Q. No, I don't want a narrative. Is there 4 some scientific method that you developed? 5 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Young, do not answer ?? 6 do not ask him any questions. Once he asks 7 you a question, you simply give your answer. 8 A. I'm more than willing to give you a 9 narrative on the analysis of scientific ?? I'm 10 sorry, of Scientology material but you're going ?? 11 it's going to require a narrative. It's pretty 12 open?ended. Do you want me to start? 13 Q. That's not what I'm asking you. 14 A. You asked me for my method of analysis. 15 I'm willing to respond, sir. 16 Q. That's not ?? it is not what I'm asking 17 you. 18 A. Yes, you did. You asked me for what 19 analysis did I use? 20 MR. DANDAR: Withdraw the question or 21 reask the question. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Now, what we're doing is 23 unbelievably improper. 24 MR. DANDAR: Don't give him a question 25 back. Just start answering the question. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 663 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. 2 MR. DANDAR: Don't ask him what he wants. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 Q. I'll withdraw the question and we'll 5 start over again. 6 A. Let's start again. 7 Q. What I want are answers and not 8 interruptions. How about criteria of method? Do 9 you have some criteria of method that you used for 10 your expert ?? to arrive at your expert opinion? 11 A. I have some criterias of methods, yes. 12 Q. Name one criteria. 13 A. Well, for examples, does this material 14 match the original. 15 Q. What else, what other criteria? 16 A. Okay. Let's ?? then this is going to 17 require a narrative, sir. 18 Q. Criteria doesn't require a narrative. 19 List it. One, you matched materials; two, what? 20 A. Okay. We match materials. We go to 21 original source materials. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. We go to materials published by the 24 organization. We compare the publications against 25 the original source materials. We see whether or SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 664 1 not the materials in the publications have been 2 changed from the source materials. We then just to 3 see whether or not the dates and the quotations 4 match. 5 Q. That's six. What else? 6 A. Do you want me to continue? 7 Q. What other criteria? That's what I want 8 to know. What criteria did you use in your 9 methodology, to establish your methodology, what 10 criteria? 11 A. No, no, no, no, no. That wasn't the 12 question. You said what criteria was I using in 13 the analysis. 14 Q. Go ahead. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. You've just named about six things, the 17 same thing with regard to comparing documents. 18 Okay. That's criteria number one with five 19 subsets. Now, is there some criteria? 20 A. No. I'm sorry, sir. This is getting 21 into an argument now. 22 Q. What other criteria? 23 A. That will suffice for now. 24 Q. Is that it? 25 A. No response I give you satisfies you, so SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 665 1 we move to the next point. 2 Q. Okay. Well, the opinions that you are 3 rendering in this case were rendered specifically 4 with regard to Scientology for litigation, weren't 5 they? 6 A. That would seem to be axiomatically true 7 since I rendered the opinion in deposition. I 8 don't understand your question. 9 Q. Well, for example, you didn't write in any 10 learned work setting forth your opinions, did you? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You didn't publish a learned work with 13 regard to your opinions on Scientology, did you? 14 A. No. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on one second. All 16 right. Those are all my questions subject to 17 reopening the cross depending on our 18 outstanding discovery requests which are 19 before Judge Moody and which ?? some of which 20 have already ?? counsel, Mr. Dandar, has 21 already been ordered to comply with and we 22 don't have. 23 MR. DANDAR: Such as what? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, for example, the 25 information with regard to the Friends of the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 666 1 Animal Foundation which specifically had to do 2 with Mr. Young. 3 MR. HERTZBERG: Remember the rulings on 4 Tuesday? 5 MR. DANDAR: So if there is more checks 6 by Mr. Minton to the foundation, you want the 7 right to come back and question Mr. Young 8 about that. 9 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's ?? look. 10 MR. DANDAR: That's one. What else? 11 MR. WEINBERG: You're the one that ?? 12 well, there is a number of ?? 13 MR. HERTZBERG: Whatever the transcript 14 reflects, Mr. Dandar. 15 MR. WEINBERG: There is a number of 16 discovery issues that are outstanding. We are 17 unwilling to be prejudiced by the fact that 18 you have accelerated his testimony and, you 19 know ?? 20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I note your 21 objection. Any other questions? 22 MR. HERTZBERG: I would add to that, by 23 the way, since you were in court Tuesday ?? 24 MR. DANDAR: Well, wait. You're not the 25 counsel ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 667 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but for this, we're 2 done asking questions, he can do this. 3 MR. HERTZBERG: Since you don't respond 4 to letters ?? 5 MR. WEINBERG: He can either whisper in 6 my ear and I can say it or he can do it. 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Since you don't respond 8 to letters, maybe you can state on the record 9 when you intend to comply with the matters 10 that the judge ordered you to pursue and 11 report back to us on and produce to us. When 12 are you going to do that? 13 MR. DANDAR: When I'm ready. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. But, see, that's ?? 15 remember, you have ?? our objection is is that 16 you've made representations, and we won't go 17 into them, about Mr. Young and we are in what 18 you've described as an extraordinary or 19 emergency situation. And what we're saying 20 Ken, is, and it's only fair, is that we would 21 be prejudiced if Mr. Young couldn't continue 22 and you are negligent or not diligent in 23 producing what we are entitled to. Okay? And 24 that's what we're saying. 25 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm just curious ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 668 1 MR. WEINBERG: So when you say whenever 2 you're ready, I mean the fact is if you think 3 that it's appropriate to wait two or three 4 months to do this, and in the interim 5 Mr. Young becomes unable to testify, we would 6 have a very major issue with that and we would 7 object. And it seems to me that ?? 8 THE WITNESS: Not as much as I would. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I understand that, 10 but I mean it seems to me that ?? for all 11 variety of reasons Mr. Young could be 12 unavailable. I mean all of us could be 13 unavailable. You know that. 14 MR. DANDAR: Right, but my question is 15 besides the funds at the Friends of Animal 16 Foundation, what else at that hearing would 17 pertain to ?? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't think that 19 it was necessarily just that hearing. We had 20 other ?? and I don't even have them in front 21 of me but there is other issues that we 22 weren't able to get to and that are pending 23 that may well be relevant to Mr. Young. 24 MR. DANDAR: You have all the documents 25 in reference to Mr. Young's payment in this SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 669 1 case. 2 MR. WEINBERG: As represented by you, 3 right. 4 MR. DANDAR: And that's accurate. You 5 are waiting to see if Mr. ?? if there are any 6 more funds to the Friends of Animal Foundation 7 from Mr. Minton other than what he testified 8 to. But what else? 9 MR. HERTZBERG: Mr. Dandar, I am not 10 going to ?? 11 MR. DANDAR: What else? 12 MR. HERTZBERG: Let me be frank with you. 13 I'm not going to respond in that format 14 because if I omit something in the response, 15 then you're going to claim, as you did the 16 other day before the judge, that we narrowed 17 it down. The judge held a hearing on Tuesday. 18 I do not have my notes with me and I do not 19 have the transcript, but you were sitting 20 there and he ordered that certain information 21 be supplied and it's all of that without any 22 other limitation. 23 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Fine. 24 MR. HERTZBERG: Because there may be 25 other outstanding discovery. So I am not SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 670 1 narrowing, I am not limiting, but every ?? at 2 the very least, the universe of what we're 3 entitled to and for which we are holding this 4 deposition open includes everything the judge 5 ordered on Tuesday, and I will further tell 6 you that I don't think he contemplated that 7 you would take your own time about it. That's 8 not what I got when I was in front of the 9 judge. 10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. But does it 11 pay to argue about this right now? I mean it 12 is what it is, Ken, so why don't we just go 13 ahead. 14 MR. DANDAR: Well, deposit slips that I 15 can't get the copies ?? 16 MR. WEINBERG: With all due respect, we 17 don't resolve that here. We've made our 18 record. Let's go on. Okay? 19 MR. DANDAR: Go on. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm done. 21 MR. DANDAR: Is there any more cross, 22 because then I'll start redirect if there's no 23 more cross. 24 MR. TITUS: I don't have any cross. I 25 just do have ?? want to make sure that I'm not SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 671 1 waiving my ?? any objections that I have 2 previously raised, and I'm also relying upon 3 the fact that it has been represented that 4 this witness has no testimony that affects ?? 5 impacts my client and is not being offered to 6 impact my client or any of the individual 7 clients ?? individual defendants in the case. 8 So, based upon that, I rely on that 9 representation and I don't have any 10 cross?examination for Mr. Young. Thank you. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 MR. DANDAR: He has no testimony that 13 directly concerns your client, that's true, 14 but when you use the word impacts your 15 clients, that's very broad. You already know 16 what his testimony is, so I think you can 17 decide that yourself. Anybody else? 18 MR. HANES: Well, I'm relying on the fact 19 that during your direct examination, when we 20 got to the point of any opinion being offered 21 you relayed, and it's in the record, that you 22 were not offering any opinion against 23 Ms. Johnson as it relies upon the testimony of 24 Vaughn Young. I assume you're not changing 25 that ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 672 1 MR. DANDAR: No. 2 MR. POLLI: Or David Houghton. 3 MR. DANDAR: No. 4 MR. HANES: ?? at this point in time. 5 MR. DANDAR: His direct testimony remains 6 the same. 7 MR. HANES: And, obviously, you 8 understand that we would have the right to 9 seek any further relief or a limiting 10 instruction or whatever the court would 11 determine appropriate for the individuals as a 12 result of that. 13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q. On cross?examination, Mr. Young, you were 17 asked about your experience in testifying as an 18 expert in a court. Have you ever testified in 19 court? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Has it involved Scientology matters? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you have given declarations or 24 affidavits in litigated cases involving 25 Scientology? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 673 1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Have you given any depositions? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And in those cases they involved 6 Scientology? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When you were in Scientology, did you ever 9 give any affidavits or declarations concerning 10 Scientology? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the 12 scope. 13 A. No, just testimony. 14 Q. In court? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. On what occasions did you testify in court 17 while you were a Scientologist? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection; 19 beyond the scope, and I have a continuing 20 objection, if it's okay ?? 21 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. 22 MR. WEINBERG: ?? as to any question 23 concerning prior testimony while he was in 24 Scientology because you didn't go into that in 25 direct and we didn't go into that in cross, if SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 674 1 that's okay. 2 MR. DANDAR: Your continuing objection, I 3 appreciate that rather than every question. 4 That's fine. 5 Q. Okay. So under what circumstance ?? tell 6 us about when you testified in court while you were 7 a Scientologist. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; narrative. 9 Q. Go ahead. 10 A. It was during the Gerry Armstrong trial of 11 ?? what was that? 1984 maybe. 12 Q. Who requested you to testify in the Gerry 13 Armstrong trial? 14 A. I don't remember exactly the name of the 15 person but there was a suit being brought 16 against ?? well, there was a suit and countersuit 17 and I was asked to by the Scientology organization. 18 Q. I'm sorry? 19 MR. WEINBERG: This is part of the 20 continuing objection, right? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes. 22 Q. I'm sorry. What organization were you 23 testifying on behalf of? 24 A. Well, I was testifying on behalf of 25 Scientology because I was a member of Author SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 675 1 Services at the time, but I was just testifying on 2 behalf of Scientology. 3 Q. Do you know who the Scientology party was 4 in that litigation with Mr. Armstrong? 5 A. It was Mary Sue Hubbard was the one, I 6 believe, was bringing the suit to try to recover 7 material that was alleged stolen by Mr. Armstrong. 8 Q. And did Mary Sue Hubbard or her attorney 9 retain you to testify in that case? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 11 A. Somebody did. Those things are not that 12 clear inside. You just ?? somebody else ?? any 13 senior can tell you you are going to testify and 14 you just show up. 15 Q. And what did you testify about? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; narrative and 17 it's part of my continuing objection. 18 A. When Mr. Armstrong had ?? I had been 19 working in the archives with Mr. Armstrong, which 20 is a different ?? a long ?? a different story I 21 won't get into, and when he left, by default the 22 archives fell to me to take care of. And so since 23 I was familiar with that and familiar with 24 Mr. Armstrong's work, I was called in about that 25 and some other research I had done into SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 676 1 Mr. Hubbard. 2 Q. Were you testifying on ?? were you 3 testifying against Mr. Armstrong? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 5 A. I was asked to testify against him, to, 6 you know, make it as negative as possible about 7 Mr. Armstrong, yes. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike, not 9 responsive. 10 Q. Were you testifying as a fact witness or 11 were you rendering any opinions? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 13 A. Just a fact witness. 14 Q. Okay. What other cases have you testified 15 in in reference to Scientology while you were a 16 Scientologist? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Part of my continuing 18 objection? 19 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 20 A. That's all. 21 Q. All right. So just the Mr. Armstrong 22 case? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Mr. Weinberg asked you about Mr. Minton 25 donating money to the Friends of Animals Foundation SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 677 1 and giving money to Stacy Young. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the 3 statement. I think it mischaracterizes what I 4 said, but I assume that's not part of your 5 question. 6 MR. DANDAR: It was a preface. 7 Q. The question is why didn't Stacy or 8 Mr. Minton tell you about his donations back in 9 October or November of 1997, if you know? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 11 A. Well, I don't know why he wouldn't or 12 would either way, but as far as Stacy not telling 13 me, it was just the arrangement we had, that ?? it 14 was an objection that she sometimes had, that I 15 didn't pay attention to the money that was 16 deposited, and if she made money or I made money, 17 we just deposited it. It wasn't something we 18 discussed. 19 Q. Were there other instances where Stacy 20 would receive money from other sources, donations 21 or any other way and not tell you about it? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 23 How would he know? 24 Q. Did that happen before Mr. Minton ever 25 arrived on the scene? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 678 1 A. Oh, yes. 2 Q. And how would you find out if she put 3 money in the bank account without telling you about 4 it? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the 6 scope. Objection as to the form. 7 MR. HANES: Object as to form. 8 A. I might discover it if I was dealing with 9 a bank balance or doing an ATM withdrawal and there 10 was a noticeable change and I might ask. 11 Q. So Stacy not telling you about 12 Mr. Minton's contributions either to the foundation 13 or to her directly, this is nothing new as far as 14 in time and reference to November or October 1997? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form. 16 MR. TITUS: Objection; leading. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Come on, Ken, you're on 18 direct. You can't ask a question like that. 19 Please. 20 A. No, it's not unusual. 21 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg also asked you several 22 questions about your involvement in testifying or 23 being a consultant in cases involving Scientology. 24 Name for us every case that you served in as a 25 consultant for somebody who was suing any SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 679 1 Scientology organization? 2 A. The Dickerson case, she was suing ?? I 3 don't have the exact name of the defendant. It was 4 a communications group but it was basically the 5 Sally Jessy Raphael TV show. 6 Q. Was Dickerson a Scientologist? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did Dickerson retain you as a consultant? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Who retained you as a consultant? 11 A. The attorneys who were representing this 12 communications group which owned Sally Jessy 13 Raphael program. 14 Q. But the communications group, was that the 15 plaintiff or the defendants? 16 A. The defendant. 17 Q. All right. My question was name the cases 18 where you were a consultant for the person who was 19 the plaintiff, the one that filed the lawsuit, 20 against Scientology? 21 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. 22 Well, most recently, as came out, I'm being 23 retained by Mr. Leipold's firm, who is representing 24 Mr. Wollersheim. 25 Q. That's in the current Wollersheim SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 680 1 litigation? 2 A. Yes, or ongoing, you know, litigation. 3 Q. Okay. When did you first get retained in 4 that case? 5 A. Just a couple of months ago. 6 Q. Okay. So that was in '99? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. What other case have you been 9 retained as a consultant in someone who is suing 10 Scientology, that actually filed a lawsuit against 11 Scientology? And, of course, we're not going to 12 count this case because ?? for obvious, you're 13 here ?? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Why wouldn't ?? wait. This 15 does count, right? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, but ?? 17 A. Oh, well, then I'll go ahead and name 18 this case just to get it on the record. 19 Q. Okay. So outside of the current 20 Wollersheim litigation and this case, are there any 21 other cases where you've been retained on the party 22 that actually filed the lawsuit against 23 Scientology? 24 A. That's the only one I can remember. 25 Q. So just those two? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 681 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. All right. What about cases ?? how many 3 cases are there where you have been retained as a 4 consultant where Scientology has filed suit against 5 someone? 6 A. Well, I'd have to pick up the Dickerson 7 case because I misunderstood the first time. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I'm sorry. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Just so it's ?? 11 Scientology ?? I mean I'm sorry to interrupt 12 but I thought he explained, Ken, that 13 Dickerson is a person, not the Church of 14 Scientology, right? 15 MR. DANDAR: We'll correct that. We'll 16 correct that. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. But I mean that's 18 the ?? the question is ?? your question is 19 cases where the Church of Scientology has 20 sued ?? 21 THE WITNESS: I misunderstood. It was my 22 error in responding. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. All right. 24 Q. Let's clear it up right now. Dickerson 25 was a Scientologist who sued the producer of the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 682 1 Sally Jessy Raphael show? 2 A. Well, the Sally Jessy Raphael show and the 3 corporation that owned it. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. Like suing CBS, as a ?? for example. 6 Q. And what is your understanding at the time 7 that suit was filed, was Dickerson a Scientologist, 8 just like a public member or staff member or what? 9 A. She was a staff member. 10 Q. Okay. And the communication company that 11 owned the show retained you as a consultant? 12 A. Yeah, the legal firm that was 13 representing ?? 14 Q. Okay. All right. Were there any other 15 cases like that, where a Scientologist, an 16 individual, was suing somebody and you were 17 retained to consult the defense? 18 A. Not Scientologists. There is sort of a 19 weird one in the middle. I'm not sure what 20 category it would fall into. That was Elliott 21 Abelson, when he was suing Ford Greene and it 22 involved, you know, the litigation involving 23 Scientology, so ?? 24 Q. Who is Elliott Abelson? 25 A. He's a Los Angeles attorney, I believe SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 683 1 he's out of Los Angeles, who had represented the 2 various Scientology entities in litigation. 3 Q. And Mr. Greene is also a lawyer? 4 A. Yes. He's up in the San Francisco Bay 5 area. 6 Q. And Mr. Greene retained you as a 7 consultant? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Anyone else involving individuals? 10 A. No. 11 Q. All right. Tell us the cases where you've 12 been retained as a consultant for the defense in a 13 case that was brought by a Scientology organization 14 or corporation. 15 A. It started with what we call the Fishman 16 case, of course, I was retained in that. Then I 17 remember the other half of it, which was an 18 individual, which is Baybak, Michael Baybak. I 19 forgot about that. He's an individual who was 20 suing Time magazine. 21 Q. Was he, at the time he filed suit, a 22 public member or a staff member of Scientology? 23 A. No, he was a public member. 24 Q. Who were you consulting for? 25 A. Cahill Gordon. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 684 1 Q. And who is that? 2 A. They were representing Time magazine. 3 Q. Oh, that was the law firm? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Any others? 6 A. I was retained by Mr. Leipold in a suit 7 brought against ?? brought by Sterling Management 8 ?? not by Sterling Management per se, you know, 9 this is the way you end up knowing them, like 10 saying Sally Jessy Raphael rather than the actual 11 name of the defendant, by Sterling against CAN. He 12 retained me for consulting on that because he had 13 that case. There was the FACT Net case which was 14 ?? the plaintiffs changed around on that one. 15 Q. Do you recall the plaintiff? 16 A. Well, I forget who it finally ended up as 17 but it was moved around between RTC and bridge 18 Publications, but that was being brought against 19 FACT Net and that was the one where I testified in 20 court in Denver. 21 Q. And you were retained by FACT Net? 22 A. I was retained by Faegre Benson, which was 23 the firm representing FACT Net. 24 Q. Okay. Any others? 25 A. Seems like I'm missing something, seems SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 685 1 like it. 2 Q. Okay. I only have listed four cases in 3 which the defense who is representing the party 4 being sued by a Scientologist or a Scientology 5 organization. Is that all that you recall, is 6 four? 7 A. There was another one which was ?? 8 Mr. Leipold had retained me in one of the CAN suits 9 to advise him on. I don't remember which one that 10 was. It was another lawsuit. The reason that 11 that's difficult is because he was handling ?? 12 there was multiple lawsuits being brought against 13 CAN, so he was just retaining me sort of in general 14 because of those and I don't think that was a 15 particular one because he had so many. 16 MR. HANES: Objection and move to strike. 17 That answer is nonresponsive to your question. 18 MR. DANDAR: Please do that at the end of 19 his answer though. Okay? 20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. I thought it 21 was at the end of his answer. 22 MR. DANDAR: I didn't think so. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q. How do these attorneys or their parties 25 that they represent find out about you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 686 1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 2 A. Sometimes I didn't know. I certainly 3 didn't contact them. They would just ?? I'll give 4 an example. Mr. Berry and Mr. Leipold, the first 5 time we started, somebody had told them about me, 6 that I had 21 years in and I spoke the language and 7 the vocabulary, and so they just got my phone 8 number, called up and said can we talk, and sort of 9 pretty much the way you called me up and said can 10 we talk. People just find me later on through a 11 reference or some other attorney would refer. I 12 don't know sometimes how they found me, and I 13 wouldn't really ask. I'd just say okay and we'd 14 just take it from there. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike 16 that whole answer as to the narrative. 17 Q. Do you advertise anywhere that you are a 18 former Scientologist available as a consultant? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you go on the Internet and advertise 21 your availability as a consultant in Scientology 22 cases? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 24 A. No, other than what was put into evidence 25 when I made some postings that I had been retained. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 687 1 No, I've never made any what might be called 2 promotional advertising of any type. 3 Q. Have you ever sent any type of 4 correspondence or any other type of communication 5 to lawyers offering your services? 6 A. No, never. 7 Q. What type of work have you done since 8 leaving Scientology in 1989? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 10 What do you mean? You mean employment? 11 Q. Employment, where you make money to earn 12 a living. That was part of Mr. Weinberg's 13 cross?examination. 14 A. The first couple of years, a lot of 15 free?lancing, working for a couple of newspapers, 16 writing for a magazine. 17 Q. Tell us what you mean by free?lancing. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Before you get to that, 19 just for the record, the first couple of 20 years, that means '89 and '90, is that what 21 that means? 22 A. '89 to '90, '91, and the free?lancing 23 spilled over even up to the point like the Der 24 Spiegel article is freelance. 25 Q. Who did you freelance for? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 688 1 A. Well, free?lancing is just wherever you 2 can get your articles sold. I sold everywhere from 3 Elks magazine to Orange Coast magazine, which is a 4 regional magazine in Orange County, wherever you 5 can sell an article. You just present it, they 6 accept it and you get your check. 7 Q. What type of things were you writing 8 about? 9 A. Oh, wrote about the Internet, wrote about 10 the San Diego Zoo, I wrote about the dangers at the 11 San Diego airport, I wrote about ?? features on 12 people. 13 Q. Scientology people? 14 A. No. There was not a word ever of that. 15 The first thing ever where that word was even 16 mentioned was in the Quill article of what was 17 that, 1995 or something like that. 18 Q. The first time you wrote about Scientology 19 or Scientology people or anything to do with 20 Scientology was in Quill magazine? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about with 23 regard to a publication or are you talking 24 about with regard to declarations and 25 affidavits? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 689 1 MR. DANDAR: Publications as a writer. 2 A. The answer is yes. 3 Q. Okay. After leaving Scientology, when is 4 the first time you were retained as a consultant 5 involving Scientology? 6 A. That was in the Fishman case by 7 Mr. Berry's firm. I just lost the name of that 8 one, Calhoun. 9 Q. What year was that? 10 A. 1992 maybe. 11 Q. What type of awards did you receive as a 12 writer, free?lance writer after leaving 13 Scientology? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 15 A. I received a first place award from the 16 San Diego Press Club for best magazine article of 17 the year. 18 Q. What year was that? 19 A. That was ?? I believe that was 19 ?? I 20 believe that was 1990 or 1991. I think it was 21 first or second place from the San Diego Society of 22 Professional Journalists for the same article. 23 Q. Any other awards in writing? 24 A. No. No. 25 MR. DANDAR: Do you have all the exhibits SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 690 1 that were here yesterday? 2 MR. WEINBERG: I think so. 3 MR. DANDAR: Let me have those, please. 4 Q. Well, tell you what, Mr. Young, why don't 5 you just go in there and, if you would, please, 6 pull out Exhibit Number 6 and 7, that's Defendant's 7 6 and 7. 8 MR. WEINBERG: You know what? Maybe I can 9 find them for you. 10 A. I'm getting there. There is 6. 11 Q. Try to keep them in order. 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Now, what ?? now 6 is the letter that was 14 sent to you by the Department of Labor, is that 15 correct? 16 A. Department of State. 17 Q. See, I got it backwards. Okay. 18 Department of State. And what was the purpose of 19 them sending you this letter? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 21 A. That ?? to give religious recognition to 22 the Church of Scientology and also to inform us 23 that the individuals that was the subject of the 24 dispute would be given a visa, be given their 25 visas. They were out of South Africa. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 691 1 Q. Why was the State Department of the United 2 States government sending you this letter, why you? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 4 A. I was the one when this thing had 5 happened with the Silcocks, S?i?l?c?o?c?k, was sent 6 back to Washington, D.C. to the State Department to 7 started dealing with this, and this was over a 8 period of, oh, a couple of months, so I was the one 9 that was dealing with this directly with the State 10 Department, so that's why the letter came to me. 11 Q. How was it that you were the only one in 12 Scientology dealing with the State Department? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 14 Q. Well, I mean ?? he's right about that 15 form. Was there anyone else dealing with the State 16 Department besides yourself? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of 18 foundation. 19 A. Not in this category, no. 20 Q. And who in Scientology designated you or 21 requested you to deal with the State Department 22 with this issue? 23 A. Arty Marin, who was the deputy guardian of 24 public relations. 25 Q. And what was your position in Scientology SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 692 1 at the time that you were dealing with the State 2 Department? 3 A. I was a member of the Snow White program, 4 which was ?? the purpose was to deal ?? one of the 5 things was to deal with difficulties with 6 government agencies, and so I ?? it fell to me to 7 go out and do this. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike; 9 not responsive. 10 Q. When was the Snow White program? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the 12 scope. We didn't go into that in 13 cross?examination. 14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's fine. I'm not 15 going to argue about it. 16 Q. What was the Snow White program? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection for the same 18 reason I just stated. 19 A. Put in the simplest terms, it was to, 20 basically, track down the sources of problems with 21 various government agencies. That's putting it in 22 the simplest of terms. 23 Q. And what was your position at Scientology 24 when you were part of this Snow White program? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Ken, I didn't SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 693 1 ask him anything about the Snow White program. 2 You went into it already. 3 MR. DANDAR: State your objection. Don't 4 speak. Just state it. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's beyond the 6 scope. We're going to sit ?? we're going to 7 go for another six hours? 8 MR. DANDAR: No. This letter and the 9 other one opened the door to everything that 10 this letter pertains to. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't open the door to 12 anything. You can't go and reask questions 13 that you've already asked that we didn't 14 cross?examine on. Go ahead. That's my 15 objection. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q. What was your position in Scientology when 18 you were part of this Snow White program that 19 resulted in Exhibit 6? 20 A. That was the only position. That's all 21 that was required. 22 Q. Okay. But what was your ?? were you in 23 the Guardian's Office at that time? 24 A. Yes, Guardian's Office, PR. 25 MR. HANES: Object to the form. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 694 1 Q. What city was that in? 2 A. Los Angeles. 3 Q. What did you do in order to accomplish the 4 State Department of the United States stating in 5 this letter of December 30th, 1974, that the Church 6 of Scientology is a, quote, religious denomination 7 having a bona fide organization in the United 8 States? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form, 10 objection; seeks a narrative. 11 A. Put in the simplest of terms, I went back 12 to find out who had been in charge of the Silcocks 13 immigration visa application within that section, 14 cornered him and started a screaming match, which 15 we were trained to do, and basically worked him 16 over until he said some seriously embarrassing 17 things, and then I took him down the hall to his 18 senior and we started doing embarrassing ?? to 19 embarrass the hell out of him, then sent in the 20 attorneys to threaten the lawsuits based upon 21 remarks made, and just basically, you know, put 22 their arms up behind their back until they ?? it 23 took about six weeks, maybe eight weeks to get this 24 and that's why they finally coughed it up. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 695 1 The only thing he didn't say, Ken, was that he 2 took a gun at him and stuck it to his head. 3 Come on. This is really improper. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. It's ?? 5 Q. Mr. Young, he just states his objection. 6 Don't engage him. 7 THE WITNESS: It's true. 8 Q. Was there any proof concerning the bona 9 fides of any claim to being a religion of 10 Scientology that you used in order to secure this 11 visa problem? 12 A. We used a ?? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Objection as to 14 the form. 15 A. We used the book that was being used the 16 other day, the background and ceremonies book. We 17 didn't have much material at that time. Most of 18 what we had was pretty much in that, and as well as 19 any other newspaper stories that we might have 20 generated using the word Church of Scientology, and 21 these would be put into packs and that was the 22 follow?up that was done later on once we had them 23 in a ?? you know, once we were making them an offer 24 they couldn't refuse, and then you give them all 25 the material. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 696 1 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; 2 nonresponsive. 3 Q. What do you mean making them an offer 4 they couldn't refuse? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 6 A. Well, simply presenting them with 7 material obviously hadn't worked, otherwise, we 8 would have gotten this recognition years before. 9 The Hubbard policy is to make or manufacture enough 10 threat, and so that's what we had to do, is we had 11 to make or manufacture enough threat. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not 13 responsive. 14 Q. How long did this ?? how long did it take 15 you to succeed in getting this visa problem 16 corrected? 17 A. I don't remember. It seems like it was a 18 couple of months, maybe two, three months, most of 19 it being spent in just, you know, the long time it 20 takes governments to respond in just letters. 21 Q. Do you recall the names of the lawyers 22 that were involved in representing Scientology who 23 threatened to sue for these defamatory statements? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 25 A. No, I ?? no, I don't. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 697 1 Q. Okay. All right. Look at Exhibit 2 Number 7. That one is from the Department of 3 Labor, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And were you involved in securing a 6 designation or recognition from the US Department 7 of Labor in 1975 where they concluded that the 8 Church of Scientology has established itself as a 9 bona fide religious organization? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What did you do to secure that recognition 12 for the Church of Scientology? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 14 It asks for a narrative. 15 A. This one came about off of material 16 obtained ?? well, I don't know if it was ?? I'm 17 sorry. This was ?? this gets very complex. We 18 just ?? we were raided in 1977 for stealing 19 documents from the government, so we were working 20 from documents, some were FOI, some were stolen. 21 So we got a document, I don't know if it was stolen 22 or other FOIs, what I was going to say, but it had 23 information in there that was really quite 24 ridiculous. It said that Scientologists were given 25 electroshock, they carried rifles and things that, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 698 1 you know, were ridiculous, you know, they were just 2 completely ridiculous. 3 So I was sent back to the Labor Department 4 to confront them with this. It was a labor thing. 5 In here it says the Foley memorandum. It was a 6 memo that was written by one Shirley Foley, as 7 spelled as in Shirley Temple. So I went back there 8 to find Shirley Foley and basically the same 9 tactic, went in there and pounded and screamed and 10 found out that Shirley was a guy, my first 11 surprise. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Are you done? 13 A. And basically did the same thing here but 14 it was mainly because it was so false, it was 15 mainly, after that, the threats of the attorneys. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike. It's not 17 responsive. It was a narrative. It was 18 improper. Ken, this is not proper redirect. 19 All right? And I strongly object to this. 20 You could not do this in court. No judge 21 would allow you to do this. No judge would 22 allow Mr. Young to rant on like he's doing. 23 Q. What material did the Shirley memorandum 24 reference when you said it was false about having 25 guns or electroshock? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 699 1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 2 A. I didn't understand. What did it use as 3 its source of information? 4 Q. Right. What was the source of information 5 for that? 6 A. That was part of the problem. There was 7 no real source on it. It just said according to 8 various sources Scientologists use electroshock, 9 carry guns, and there was a number of other things 10 that were clearly from ?? some of it we could tell 11 was from newspaper articles, some others we 12 couldn't tell where it was from. 13 Q. And those allegations ?? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Move to strike; 15 not responsive. 16 Q. Those allegations against Scientology 17 were false, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So if those were false allegations, then 20 what source documents or resources did you use to 21 convince the Department of Labor to recognize the 22 Church of Scientology as a bona fide religious 23 organization? 24 A. Well, we did present materials regarding 25 the E?meter, which that seems to be what they were SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 700 1 talking about with electric shock. That's the only 2 thing we could talk about. There was nothing we 3 could present regarding rifles. We just dug up 4 what we could and between that and the threats, you 5 know, in the face, pound the desk threats was what 6 we did. It was a combination. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike; 8 not responsive. 9 Q. Tell me what you mean by the threats. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 11 A. We were trained to, when it's required, 12 you go in there and you pound the table, you 13 scream, if you have to, you know, you're hauled out 14 by the police to make a scene, whatever was 15 required to get what you're going for. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike. 17 Q. Well, I'm trying to get more detailed 18 information on this. Is this like one instance, 19 did you actually yourself go in and do this at the 20 Department of State? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 22 Q. Excuse me. The Department of Labor? 23 A. Yes, I did this. I remember distinctly 24 pounding on his desk and screaming in his face. 25 Q. And who was this? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 701 1 A. Mr. Foley. 2 Q. And how long did that go on? 3 A. The screaming? 4 Q. Yes. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, I have an objection to 6 this entire line of questions. Could I have a 7 continuing objection? 8 A. It was only just a matter of a few 9 minutes, a couple of minutes and he had to get out 10 of there and I just followed him to another office 11 and continued to scream. 12 Q. How long did that happen? Go on. 13 A. Then the seniors were brought in and he 14 left, and then we talked for another 15 minutes. 15 Q. And was that all that you had to do in 16 order to secure this designation? 17 A. No. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 19 Q. Did you do anything else? 20 A. I came back for another meeting and then 21 the attorneys sent in their letters and that was 22 the end of my direct contact with labor. 23 Q. And what do you mean the attorneys were 24 sent in? 25 A. By correspondence. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 702 1 Q. And how soon after that did you obtain 2 this letter from the Department of Labor? 3 MR. TITUS: Object to the form. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 5 A. This was several months. This might have 6 been three, maybe four months. This was a long 7 one. 8 Q. Was there anyone else in charge of 9 securing this designation from the Department of 10 Labor in 1975 other than you? 11 A. No. I was in charge. 12 Q. While you were a member for 21 years in 13 Scientology, was Scientology, throughout that time, 14 attempting to obtain tax exempt religious status? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you show me Exhibit 8, please? What 18 was the purpose of you writing this letter dated 19 July 22nd, 1975, to the assistant solicitor, 20 Department of Labor, in Washington, D.C.? 21 A. This was ?? now I remember. This was 22 after a phone call where they just said they 23 weren't able to take any further action and so I 24 had to summarize, and so that's why it contains 25 references to various letters and meetings that go SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 703 1 back to May, making the demand, sort of like the 2 final demand. So this letter was dated July 22nd, 3 '75, and the concession letter was in November. 4 Q. What was your position in Scientology at 5 the time you wrote that letter? 6 A. It was the same as the one for the 7 Department of State. 8 Q. And what is that? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asked and 10 answered. 11 A. The title would mean nothing. It was PR 12 liaison. It just was a title used for what we were 13 doing. 14 Q. And were you a member of the Sea Org at 15 that time? 16 A. No. 17 Q. What was your hat, your position in 18 Scientology at that time? 19 A. Well, at that point with the letters, I 20 was PR liaison or deputy PR liaison. 21 Q. Okay. Now, when you joined Scientology, 22 that was in 1968? 23 A. Yes. Well, when I feel I became one by 24 reading the books. 25 Q. Okay. What was the name of the mother SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 704 1 church in Scientology at that time, in the late 2 '60s? 3 A. I didn't know a name. I just knew books. 4 I didn't even know there were churches. I was out 5 in the middle of California. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike; 7 not responsive. 8 A. I assume you're asking about that time 9 what did I think. 10 Q. No. I'm asking if you actually knew at 11 that time that there was a mother church? 12 A. No, I didn't know. 13 Q. Okay. When did you first learn that there 14 was a mother church? 15 A. Not until I got my training in the 16 Guardian's Office a couple of years later. 17 Q. Okay. Did you learn the name of the 18 mother church at that time? 19 A. Well, not really. We didn't deal with the 20 corporate in that way. The organization was set up 21 quite differently. The Church of Scientology of 22 California was dominant because it was just there 23 like the advanced organization was there, but we 24 didn't deal with it in that way. Plus, the 25 Guardian's Office had its own network, so we didn't SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 705 1 have to deal with those churches in that way. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not 3 responsive. 4 Q. Were you a member of Scientology when the 5 Church of Scientology International was formed? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what was the Church of Scientology 8 International? 9 A. That's what became the mother church. 10 Q. Okay. Were you aware of the name of the 11 mother church before the incorporation of the 12 Church of Scientology International? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asked and 14 answered. 15 A. That was the Church of Scientology of 16 California. 17 Q. What happened to the Church of Scientology 18 of California? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 20 It's also beyond the scope. 21 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 10 opened the door to 22 that one too. 23 MR. WEINBERG: No door was open. 24 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 25 A. It basically just sort of ceased to be, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 706 1 just became a shell. It just isn't there. 2 Q. And do you know why? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form; 4 outside the scope. 5 A. That's one of the arguments in the 6 Wollersheim case that's being argued, so I don't 7 want to step into that one too much. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike. 9 Q. You were shown also Exhibit 11, Defense 10 Exhibit 11, which is an RTC letter from the IRS 11 recognizing RTC as a tax exempt religious 12 organization. 13 A. Yes, I have it here. 14 Q. What is the purpose of the RTC? 15 A. That was ?? we covered that in cross as to 16 what ?? they are reading from the bylaws, unless 17 you are asking my opinion. 18 Q. No, I'm not asking you to read from the 19 bylaws. I'm basing this ?? my question is based 20 upon your experience in Scientology, what was the 21 purpose of RTC? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asks for a 23 narrative. 24 A. With the reorganization there used to be 25 two basic networks or what was called arm. One was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 707 1 the Sea Organization and one was the Guardian's 2 Office, and RTC was to bring those two arms 3 together. So you had a Sea Org enforcement, at the 4 same time you had an enforcement through the 5 Guardian's Office channels so that you could get 6 enforcement and compliance, and that was ?? that's 7 what it was basically to do. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not 9 responsive. 10 Q. Based upon your experience within 11 Scientology, who had the more senior power to get 12 enforcement, RTC or the Sea Org? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form; 14 no foundation. This man has not been and will 15 never be qualified to give an opinion like 16 that, if that's what you're seeking. 17 A. Well, the Sea Org always had the power to 18 go into the organizations long before RTC was 19 formed or anything else. Its power is much more 20 old ?? much older, much more housed in Hubbard's 21 policies, and RTC just became the house where they 22 resided. It was the power of the Sea Org that went 23 into the RTC. They didn't derive their power from 24 RTC. It's almost as if RTC derived its power from 25 the Sea Org. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 708 1